Calico corn?????

Ok, so some of you will know this snake and her history, others won't and for this reason along with the fact I'm so damn curious about her (have been discussing her with another member lately also), I am asking for opinions on what you all think she is.

So far what we know is she is a normal female with some not so normal markings. It was suspected in the past and suggested by some of the known big corn experts she was a Calico after viewing her photographs but many have disagreed with this and suggested she is more like a frosted. Although I am no expert she is unlike any frosted I have seen AND she has acquired more 'frosting' after shedding. Should this be the case in her 5th year give or take if she is a frosted?

She was bred a few years back, layed 10 eggs, 9 hatched and all bar one of the hatchlings died. Apparently they where all weaker then you would expect, problematic feeders, all required intervention and subsequently 8/9 died. The owner at the time told me she thought due to her genetics the babies were weak so she wasn't worth breeding again. What I find fascinating about it all was the survivor was showing white coming in after it shed but unlike a frosted, again I'm going on what I was told and not experience here. I did see and hold this baby myself and it was looking like mum in my eyes. Actually I would love to know where that baby is, to see it now as it's been almost 1 1/2 yrs on so should be interesting to follow up.

The Rat snake foundation suggested the following

The (continual) depigmentation is a process that is accompanied by the appearance of blisters and lesions .. a result of an autoimmune process where the snake rejects it's own pigment ..

The first corn showing these white patches was a female WC Rosy Corn from the Florida keys and owned by Dwayne Collins .. he bred her to a normal corn and sent some of the offspring to Ernie Wagner and kept some back for himself .. These guys tried a couple of times to breed them but always hatched normal hatchlings so gave up on the project.
Julian Cowles continued with the project and eventually demonstrated with her F2 generation that there was a built in time delay before the calico/piedbald effect manifested itself. White splodges appeared sometimes gradullay at other times almost instantly when the snake sloughed. It was mostly always accompanied by blistering.
The delay of onset of depigmentation until maturity, combined with it almost always occuring in females, seems to parallel a human condition called lupus.
There has been a load of controversity surrounding this 'Calico' morph. A few big breeders brought into this morph to prove it genetics and try and see if they could seperate the lethal gene from the depigmentation gene .. This all happened back in the 80's ... not heard anything recently about them .. certainly not that they were successful in isolating any genes.

I hope it does prove out to be a new simple reccesive mutation that would be cool, but I suspect it is a real nice example of a frosted corn

Now she does have some funky weird head scales but has never ever had any of the blistering they talk about happening most of the time, not with me of her previous owners. She sheds just like any other corn Anyway she probably is nothing special in corn terms, although she's special to me but how fantastic would it be if she turned out to be something more then just a frosted. (I need some better shots which I'll try get later but for now)
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Anyone at all?? Come on guys, your viewing the thread, post a comment.

Corn Gurus enter the fray...Phil?? What do you reckon

Phil, Nikki come on, an opinion, surely you don't find it a boring topic.

well i havent a clue lol,
but it very cool looking were did you get it?

I got her from one of our members, who got her from another member, who got her from another one lol Shes been passed around a bit over the years but she's not leaving here

has she bred only once?
it could of been because she was first timer
or not enought of somthing when she caried the eggs or when incubating
somthin simple at that

It's not often that I would think this let alone say it but guys I'm really disappoint. Loads of hits and only Tony and Hudsy reply. I did think my girl would have generated a little bit more interest but anyway, maybe I'm easily intrigued (Tan walks off to sulk in corner)

I've read it and have seen the snake in question several times in the past. However as I'm so out of touch with advences in corn morphs and current info, I can only guess an answer.

IMO its a freak thing, an individual abberrancy that isn't genetically heritable. Perhaps as the snake ages, its ability to produce pigment in certain areas is reduced and so the frosted appearance develops.
Pigments are costly to produce and maybe some part of the pigment production or deposition pathway (from food to pigment) has degenerated as the snake has aged?

Thank you Karl. I'm liking your answer. She is unusual in the flesh isn't she? It's just nice to see peoples opinions and as she has changed since her last shed I just decided oh feck this, I'm gona ask a few people what they think.

(im useless with corn genetics)maybe if you tried to breed her with say another frosted and see wat you get, im sure that would give an idea,
or to an albino to somthin recessive that way you could narrow it down?
as the babies will just gain het albino but will maybe be frosted or somthin
out of the blue and you end up with a one of a kind

I'm not great on the genetics side and would say it's very basic although I do have Pritzles books which are a great help I find. If the right male came along I do think I'd like to have a go but none of my own boys would be suited.

Actually someone else would have to have a go. I fear my lack of experience breeding would get in the way and I don't think I'd like to mess up with something she produced.

Anyone any suggestions on a male?

To me Its more that just frosting going on with this girl .
I never seen any other frosted corn with this look . Any frosted look i,ve seen the frosting isn,t white . Its contained within the saddles and is the lighter background colour .

If the surviving hatchling is starting to show the calico think going on , if definently breed her again using a different male .
A sunkissed would be a nice choice .

Do you know who has the survivor now Tan ?


Nikki

Thanks Nikki. I have't ask Debs if the 'survivor' survived beyond when I was there as it would have been January '09 when I last saw it.

I do remember it showing signs and no blistering in that baby either so maybe worth while even if it didn't survive. Could all deaths be attributed to possibly the male OR just the bringing of those two particular snakes together (if genetics are the reasons)??

I mean maybe if she was bred to another male the babies would be genetically more sound (for lack of a better way of putting it) or am I talking rubbish here??

stunning snake

Tan.. she is defo a frosted,, just an abnormally extreme form.. I had her checked out by a few pps who have calico corns and when you see the difference you would be 100% sure yourself.. I will try and find the pics again.. they were not posted openly and I may have to ask permission as my friends don't flash about at having them.. they are very uncommon and not available widely anywhere. The markings of a calico are completely different to any other corn.. I have a pic of a black rat that is a calico.. again better pics I have are private ones and I will see if I can get them for you as a comparison.. this one is available online
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the normal calico female I was sent a pic of is not very disimilar to the black rat..

I cannot access the main pics right now as we are doing some maintenace to the site and having sme down time.. If I can get permission I will certainely copy them for you to see. A good friend of mine who also helped ID zafira has the Calico Chinese Beauties and I am sure she won't mind me posting one in the name of information..
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the Calico form is nor very disimilar to the Calico cats,, the black, orange and white patches..

So you can see how Zafira still has alot of her normal markings which, if she was a true calico she wouldn't have any of..

a few years back she produced 19 nice fertile eggs which all hatched, all of which to my knowledge have since died.. they refused to feed no matter what technic was used.. and if this has happened a second time I would say that it isn't a coincidence.. the eggs were perfectly formed.. all were fertile, all hatched at perfect time.. it was the individual animals that showed all the problems.. It happens.. some snakes just aren't meant to reproduce I guess..

hope that has helped alittle.. :)

The little hatchling your refering too did not survive.. although it was the longest to come through the force feeding.. it is just too much stress on them especially at such a small size :( The frostng it was showing was very faint but all in the Saddles as Nikki mentioned so it woould have ideally been more like a normal frosted should be and not like the extreme of Zafira..

The other owner who had her before me and took some of the young as we agreed a breeding split, i don't know about them.. You will have to check that one Tan..

The male in question has bred 3 times successfully, once before and twice after Zafira's breeding and all young survived well, ate straight away and were passed on when ready.. I have not been told otherwise that they aren't doing well so I am guessing they are all fine and dandy..

Sorry I cannot be giving yu better news..

I would still go ahead and breed her if you fancy the challenge.. You only get the experience by trial and error. I was bricking it first time I bred snakes and it was all worth it though to see the wee dudes hatching.. :)
haven't bred this year with moving.. Too much hassle and worry with eggs in incubators.. But I would defoe have a go.. Track down a nice male.. Maybe Ben has some you could borrow/loan or ask him to take her for a short while.. Sure he has some nice ones there..

Hey Debs, WOW, thanks for the indebt, detailed reply and pictures. Another forum member & I have talked about breeding her as we are very interested to see how that clutch fairs so regardless of what Zafira is it shall be an interesting project needless to say.

I have to admit I am very confused right now after your mail and reply to this thread (much appreciated BTW) and I’ll tell you why. Last year on the Rat Snake Foundation Zafira had been the topic of a small discussion if you remember (I decided to post her in here as we had new members , fresh eyes and opinions of people unaware of her and her unusualness lol so always nice to hear those ideas) which in it’s self was rather interesting but some what contradictory to what you have said in these posts, but as a reminder and also to bring those unaware up to scratch if interested in my beautiful girl, the conversation was as follows; (my apologies for the incorrect information I provided at the start of this thread, I misread your post to say 9/10 hatched and not 9:10, so forgive my mistake, I edited my post twice to reflect the incorrect information lol)


Posted by yourself
After seeing the calico beuty and Sue's request i though that it might actually be nice to have a thread with pics of everyones (if you have any or now of any) calico forms of snakes..

I'm gonna start with my Calico normal female cornsnake.. She's not as white as other species but she is getting more white as she ages..
I have had her about 7 months now and I used her for a breeding loan with my male lastyear which she prodiced 19 eggs. All hatched successfully but sadly only 1 out of the clutch survived and is eating very well atleast. had major propblems getting them feeding and ended up doing the worst thing or Force feeding which I never like to do unless its a case of life or death.. Sadly it just proved too much..

I wonder is that due to their parentage.. I know with some snakes like Miami's can prove problem feeders at birth or so I've been told.. maybe calicos' are similar!!!!
She has what appears like a huge scar from a slice right across back of her head but it is only her markings.. very strange.

Well here are the only pics i have of her at present.. was the breedingh shots with the big normal male I have..
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She has what appears like a huge scar from a slice right across back of her head but it is only her markings.. very strange.
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You can see her whitening against the male..
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Sue replied with
Hi Debs

I love that look on Corns .. but I don't think it is 'Calico' .. looks very similar to a Frosted Corn .. which may have Grey Ratsnake blood in them which gives them that appearance.

Calico snakes have a mosaic pattern to them.
Heres a photo from Don Sodenbergs of South Mountain Raptiles (posted with permission) it looks very similar to yours in my eyes.

Sue x

Edited to add: Frosted isn't a recessive trait.
Attach file: frosted017.jpg (82.19 KB)
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You (note the highlighted part of this paragraph as this is what has me so
confused)
I thought that too Sue.. so we sent pics of her to different big corn experts arund the woorld and they all came back and said calico which I wasn't exppecting.. I had gone through Don's book and a few others and I would have said frosted aswell..

I don't know what she is to be honest anymore.. but I'm selling her soon anyway as she doesn't phase into any of my plans anymore..

I don't plan on breding her again as I wanna concentrate on (corn wise) the silvers, pewters ghosts, aners and lavenders so the rest are going..

Whatever she is she is pretty.. And getting whiter all the time..

Sue

She is very pretty .. selling her ummmmm .. must resist must resist would make an interesting long term project for someone to prove her out.
You
That was the plan but I had so much trouble with the hatchlings last year that I kinda lost heart in it all.. We had 9:10 hatch and were gonna keep them all back and cross them to each other and see if it would prove out or not but I just don't think I ca face it right now.. too many other plans now wwith the rat snakes to play with.. LOL..

Mel

She will be mine, oh yes, she will be mine *rubs hands as an evil plan emerges*

Ok, no evil plan but she really will be mine as soon as my baby cresties are sexable

I always thought she was frosted too, but since Debs had it checked out I just accepted that I was probably wrong lol. My anery female is has a lot of frosting, and her normal son is showing a similar trait so this might work out to be a nice project...

Sue

No fair No fair .. I want a bestest friend called Debs too


I've just had my brain cells nudged by Rob who reminded me of Tim Rainwater's Calico Cornsnake AKA Piedbald ...

I would of thought that all the big breeders would be aware of this mutation and so think it's strange that they put that name up for it.

The (continual) depigmentation is a process that is accompanied by the appearance of blisters and lesions .. a result of an autoimmune process where the snake rejects it's own pigment ..

The first corn showing these white patches was a female WC Rosy Corn from the Florida keys and owned by Dwayne Collins .. he bred her to a normal corn and sent some of the offspring to Ernie Wagner and kept some back for himself .. These guys tried a couple of times to breed them but always hatched normal hatchlings so gave up on the project.
Julian Cowles continued with the project and eventually demonstrated with her F2 generation that there was a built in time delay before the calico/piedbald effect manifested itself. White splodges appeared sometimes gradullay at other times almost instantly when the snake sloughed. It was mostly always accompanied by blistering.
The delay of onset of depigmentation until maturity, combined with it almost always occuring in females, seems to parallel a human condition called lupus.
There has been a load of controversity surrounding this 'Calico' morph. A few big breeders brought into this morph to prove it genetics and try and see if they could seperate the lethal gene from the depigmentation gene .. This all happened back in the 80's ... not heard anything recently about them .. certainly not that they were successful in isolating any genes.

I hope it does prove out to be a new simple reccesive mutation that would be cool, but I suspect it is a real nice example of a frosted corn

You
I'd agree with it being frosted m,yself.. always was alittle suss but when the big names came back and on other usa forums etc all going what a lovely calico we kinda thought oh okay..

The thing that seemed to sway it is she has a reallyabnormal head marking where the scales are all stretched apart and all you can see is skin..at first I seriously thought she had been burned, injured or god knows what!

But the guys came back saying, just watch that area incase it starts showing blistering etc..

thankfully that hasn't happenned so I'd like to hope it is just frosting as I woudn't wanna see her scaring with wounds..
And yes Mel is going to take her as I really wanna nab some of the lovely flame and patternless geckos she is breeding. they are stunners so gonna do a trade

Now... where do I put the tank fot e geckos.. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..




So I’m sure you can see why I am totally confused. Is it fair to assume that after March of '09 you resubmitted those same photos of Zafira to the experts & forums & they all then changed their minds on the original class they put her in????

I know my experience with the snakes is not near as extent as yours BUT is it not also fair to say colours/traits etc... are variable? That one animal which belongs in class ‘X’ may look very different to that of another animal also belonging to class ‘X’ and to expand on this slightly, the same trait in two different species can also vary depending on that species??

I do hope to be able to update this thread later in the year with some interesting news on Zafira so fingers crossed we get some nice babies from her and we can go from there.

As Tony would say, always moving forward

V interesting thread guys , looking forward to the update in due course...

yeah.. I know what you mean.. I got completely confused and when Sue was filling me on on what she did research wise it swayed me to being more confident she was infact a frosted.. (genetics baffles me 100% lol..)

it was when the pics had been sent to reputable and well known corn breeders in the states, when Tom and I first considered breeding her and they were passed to a few others aswell to probably back up their own thought I guess.. They said a few came back with frosted but the majoroty said it was a possibly a calico.. They were not 100% and said a breeding project was the way to go to be totally sure. That was the only reason I even dared to post a thread about calico's believing she was one. Having never seen or (until Tom produced pics of Zafira) even heard of Calico to be honest).

I am not anyway into genetics and what crossed with what produced such and such. its more for the fun and enjoyment of the whole process that, for me, breeding is a fun project. I wouldn't have done any looking into her 'morph' if it was totally obvious what she was. was more for pure curiosity. America being America they are really big into their corns so where else best to ask for advice re: morphs etc...

She could still be a very abnormal calico but after seeing pics of other calico's and seeing the way their markings are so similar no matter which species the calico is in. I would be much more confident saying IMO not!

I have my eyes on a calico black rat next year if the friend of a friend breeds them and my house ain't swallowed up every penny I possess pmsl...

regardless of what she is, if she has a calico gene in there somehwere, or just a very extreme frosted.. she still is a stunning snake and very different to anything else you see out there... Go for the breeding.. Why not.. You have nothing to loose by having a go. :)

For me, After the young all went I lost heart in working with her and decided to concentrate on other things after importing all the ratsnakes from US. Interests lay more there so really haven't thought any more of it..

Hope she is doing well any roads and looking forward to seing what you come up with... :)