Some more pics

All of a sudden we are seeing the babies are out and about with mum which has given us an opportunity of getting some nice family pics (we assumed that the babies had been coming out before when no one was about as we did find baby sized poos out in the main cage area.)
They are now eating solid food and have even started using the exercise wheel (I know its a bit large but its surprising how well they manage it).

Great photos and I love the wheel photo John...they're all looking great!!

Lovely pics John. That little girl is now looking like a smashing Ruby-Eyed Cinnicot (in 2nd image) or pale Apricot (in 1st & 3rd image), don't know yet lol.

Well done and I have to say my goodness someone with some sense when it comes to wheels. You guys really did make an excellent 100% safe choice. Where did you pick this one up?? Wish other hog owners bothered as much.

Tanpira wrote:Well done and I have to say my goodness someone with some sense when it comes to wheels. You guys really did make an excellent 100% safe choice. Where did you pick this one up?? Wish other hog owners bothered as much.

Thanks!
Glad you liked the wheel Tan, you have got me off the hook big time as the OH gave me a lot of grief as I had removed all their toys etc from the cage to take the pics and it looks very bare and boring, especially as she had bought a three way tunnel, balls, tubes etc,etc and none of it was in the pics.
As far as the wheel was concerned I was in our local pet shop and asked for a large wheel, they produced this one and gave it to me as it had been on display and no one was interrested in one that size. The wheels in the other two hogs cages are almost as big and we got them from Pets at Home, we feel that it takes something that large for them to use it properly as adults and also to enjoy it which all ours do.
Its amazing how long they spend in the wheel ( I read somewhere that on average a hog can cover the equilivant of 8 kilometers each night) also for Toffee to not have had a wheel with her previous owner she has really taken to it big time.
She will need to spend some extra hours in it when the babies are weaned to get her figure back! On this note is it possible to over feed them at this stage, she eats everything in sight but we assume that she is regurgitating some for the babies although now they are coming out and eating solids by themselves she may be getting too much.

John

John if you have any articles or papers which discuss regurg can you point me in that direction because it was always my understanding they didn't feed them this way but never too late to learn.

As far as I was aware she will eat and allow them to suckle but will slowly stop allowing them to do this as they would now have teeth and she will become more sensitive. All part of the weaning process. I also thought at or around the three/four week mark is when mum (both domestic & wild) brings her hoglets with her to forage and this is when they start to feed on solids officially. When mum eats kibble etc, she chews with her lip in that funny position and babies will eat the smaller pieces and crumbs.

I could be so wrong but I've always been very intrusive with my girls and watched them, for hours on end and then only thing I've seen is the mum stimulating the babies or cleaning a face but that doesn't mean they don't do it. You know I'd be kicking myself if this is something they do and I've never witnessed it in all the years.

As far as toys go we always keep it minimal and put a wheel back around their age as no wheel should be present while the babies are smaller. Too many deaths based on overzealous mums. Not worth it IMO. Anyway your wheels fab and one thing I always try to stress with people is this should be the minimal toy/source or exercise available and when I saw yours I kinda went cause not only is it the most perfect design for them you actually have one lol To hear you have tunnels and other toys is just a bonus and you really are making good use of the space, creating an obstacle course is always fun :)

Sorry I never mentioned food, she will eat more as shes still feeding them. The key is to offer her hoppers for insects and not meal/morio worms etc....

Lower her portions once the babies are weaned but then there isn't really a set amount. Some hogs are lazy and eat far less then very active ones. Its the same rule as with us and everything else, calories in/calories out and making the right choices on the food you offer.

I'd even suggest maybe weighing her weekly for the first few weeks after separation and see if she pretty much maintains it or once it's within a normal range for her size then I wouldn't worry too much. Also we are coming into winter which they will sense and although they do not hibernate they can go into a sort of deepish sleep now and then so maybe thats why shes eating more.

Tanpira wrote:John if you have any articles or papers which discuss regurg can you point me in that direction because it was always my understanding they didn't feed them this way but never too late to learn.

Hi Tan
I got this info out of a book called The Guide to Owning an African Pygmy Hedgehog by Dennis Kelsey-Wood and published by TFH Publications.Inc
I quote the following under
Rearing and Handling
"Until the babies start to leave the nest, their nutritional requirements will be supplied via the sow's milk and by food that the mother has regurgitated. It begins their process of familiarization with solid food."

The author talks about his own experiences as a breeder and his many contacts in the NAHA and it is with this knowledge that he has written the book.
I know that you shouldn't always believe everything you read but the rest of the book seemed to be very accurate and informative.
This looks like it is an interesting topic - 'do they or don't they feed by regurgitation' and knowing you I am sure you will be able to shed some more light on it sooner rather than later.
Thanks for the rest of the information
John

I know the book once you gave it a name. All I will say is nothing I've read have I ever agreed with in full (we're always learning new things) but I am aware I've sooo much more to learn so I suppose not really in a position to argue his information. I cannot say it is untrue just something I've never ever seen or heard anyone else talk about. I'm going to make a few enquiries and get back to you on this one because that would be very interesting indeed. Oh now I'm going to have to learn the entire process if it is true, how cool would that be??

Thanks for the info John, I'll get back to you.

Hi Tan
Been giving this a bit more thought and all I will say that is that feeding babies by regurgitation is quite common in the animal world, carnivores like hyaenas,cape hunting dogs, lions and tigers do it as do some omnivores like bears so it wouldn't surprise me if hedgehogs did it too. However I tried to find out if there were any other references on the web but drew a blank, interesting however that something like that was put in print without being challenged if it weren't true.
Looking forward to hearing what you find out.
John

No ones back to me yet John , however, I too have been giving thought to it and although I know it is fairly common in the animal would and I agree, wouldn't have surprised me to find out that this is something they do BUT that would have been my opinion had I not spent so god damn much time with them. I'm just surprised I've never seen it, thats all and kinda feel like I've missed out on an important aspect of their lives. I suppose a little disappointed after being able to witness a birth, a nursing mother who'd let me do anything no matter what she was doing, basically intrude in everything and I missed this one thing which to me is a big thing.

Funny you should mention the book. Over a year ago it was suggested by a well know TV vet he wanted to collaborate on a hog book covering what we knew between us. Now tbh I wouldn't have said they don't regurg because I don't know either way but I wouldn't have mentioned it in that part of the book so that would have been another book out there with info in it and I suppose would have given the impression they do not do this and my point is that this book wouldn't have been challenged by anyone till it was in print and then maybe people would read it and think the way I do when I read many others. This isn't off the table yet so looks like much more research needs to be done to give as complete a guide as is possible.

If I showed you some of the older books and they have excellent photos of set up and the info alone youd bang your head on a wall BUT at the time we knew this to be 'fact' and the best thing for them and now we know its was all rubbish lol but I too have been a googling and nothing. Actually I found one ref to people saying as far as I know hedgehogs don't regurg but again I think we need a more senior person to answer this so thats why I've gone to my friends in the IHA for some answers :)