Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Avic avic moult

+5
igmillichip
Buddy
jonty
Tony W
morelia
9 posters

Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Avic avic moult

Post by morelia Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:39 pm

After going off his food for a while my little Avic avic finally shed lastnight :)

Avic avic moult P1040631

Unfortunately the abdomen was too clumpled to get a confirmation of sex, but had to have a closer look anyway

Fang detail
Avic avic moult P1040634

Cephalothorax detail
Avic avic moult P1040636

And the freshly moulted dude himself
Avic avic moult P1040674
Avic avic moult P1040675
Avic avic moult P1040681
....the orange toes are starting to become more pink now :)
morelia
morelia
I swear I'm not addicted
I swear I'm not addicted

Male
Number of posts : 1472
Age : 44
Location : Norn Irn
Registration date : 2009-03-02

Back to top Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Re: Avic avic moult

Post by Tony W Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:00 pm

Cool photos Karl, we all love a Pink Toe!!! Avic avic moult 792195

Tony W
Someone turn off my internet
Someone turn off my internet

Male
Number of posts : 2872
Age : 60
Location : N'ards, Co Down
Registration date : 2009-08-23

http://www.tjreptiles.net

Back to top Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Re: Avic avic moult

Post by jonty Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:45 pm

awesome photo's Karl, i still can't get my head round the fact that they shed thier lungs and sexual organs etc
jonty
jonty
Insomniac
Insomniac

Male
Number of posts : 2371
Age : 45
Location : Newtownards Co. Down
Registration date : 2009-04-15

http://www.saintfieldhockeyclub.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Re: Avic avic moult

Post by Buddy Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:22 pm

Great pics...if you spray the abdomen of the moult with tepid water you should be able to gently stretch it out after about 20 mins or so
Buddy
Buddy
I just can't stop
I just can't stop

Male
Number of posts : 936
Age : 57
Registration date : 2010-06-28

Back to top Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Re: Avic avic moult

Post by igmillichip Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:01 pm

Cool you got the avic through the molt.

Do as Buddy says with the molt.....and from then how were you going to sex it?

By the spermatheca or by the epigastric furrow method?
I use the epigastric furrow method but you need to not damage the molt.
Pretty high level of confidence even with small specimens.

ian

igmillichip
Unemployed
Unemployed

Male
Number of posts : 321
Age : 73
Location : Dublin
Registration date : 2009-06-10

http://www.thehsi.org

Back to top Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Re: Avic avic moult

Post by Tony W Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:41 pm

What are your plans with this little dude/dudette Karl???

Tony W
Someone turn off my internet
Someone turn off my internet

Male
Number of posts : 2872
Age : 60
Location : N'ards, Co Down
Registration date : 2009-08-23

http://www.tjreptiles.net

Back to top Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Re: Avic avic moult

Post by Tan Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:34 pm

Excellent photos Karl and he's simply gorgeous.
Tan
Tan
Someone turn off my internet
Someone turn off my internet

Female
Number of posts : 5856
Age : 122
Location : Dublin
Registration date : 2009-03-02

http://www.irish-rabbit-club.com

Back to top Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Re: Avic avic moult

Post by morelia Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:57 pm

Thanks for the tips Buddy / Ian - I'll try that ASAP as I'm keen to have a go at these exuvium sexing methods LOL. I'm only familiar with the spermathecae sexing Ian - whats the details of the other method?

Tony - no plans as such for this lil dude, I just like arboreal things that can jump - so he's called Dr. Hatsumi after the last great Ninja :)
morelia
morelia
I swear I'm not addicted
I swear I'm not addicted

Male
Number of posts : 1472
Age : 44
Location : Norn Irn
Registration date : 2009-03-02

Back to top Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Re: Avic avic moult

Post by igmillichip Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:53 am

If the Tarantula event for Saturday is not cancelled, then Justine is going to mention that form of sexing.
So......I'll probably not be going into too much detail on that until afterwards.
But basically, you are looking for either a consistent or inconsistent curvature and bristle length and density along the epigastric furrow.
You can do this on living animals. Basically, the male have an inconsistent pattern of curvature and brittle density along the epigastric furrow....the epiandrous gland is the reason for the bristle density and length change.
SO: no cheating, and don't go hunting for pictures....see if that very brief overview helps you.
It's a very good methos and allows you to sex tarantulas from a very young age.

ian

igmillichip
Unemployed
Unemployed

Male
Number of posts : 321
Age : 73
Location : Dublin
Registration date : 2009-06-10

http://www.thehsi.org

Back to top Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Re: Avic avic moult

Post by snakeboyadam2k8 Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:03 am

Hi karl
As others have said if you damp the shed you can unfold the abdomen part quite easily, with your photography skills (the pics are fantastic) you should be able to take some of the inside of the moult around the lung area (the white leaf shaped things inside the moult), if you post these some of us should be able to give you a good idea of the sex of your spid.
John
snakeboyadam2k8
snakeboyadam2k8
I just can't stop
I just can't stop

Male
Number of posts : 785
Age : 77
Location : Belfast
Registration date : 2009-03-02

Back to top Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Re: Avic avic moult

Post by igmillichip Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:54 am

Here is a defo Female (from a picture of the live animal)
(I'm stealing one of Justine's photos from her talk...but she'll forgive me)

Avic avic moult MRK_1

This may be a Mex Red Knee, but that makes no difference.
In a male, the area where the arrow points would be not as consitent as this female specimen. There would be an area of short bristles that tends to distort the furrow.
This female is 10 or 11 years old, but this would be seen in a very young spiderling.
The spermatheca method would require 5 to 7 molts before it is clearly shown (in which time you could easily mistake a female for a male using the spermatheca method).
I don't have a picture on photobucket with a male epigastric furrow so I can't post that here.

Now, if using the epigastric furrow method on a molt....you need to make sure that the area between the book lungs is not damaged in your molt prep else it will give a distorted view.

On difficult ones, you may need to make a 1 in 20 glycerin solution to help manipulate the molt and prevent ripping it.

In fact, it may well be worth practicing with the 1 in 20 glycerine solution to manipulate molts in case you ever need to help a struggling T out of a difficult dry molt (if you do ever need to do that, then avoid getting anything in the book lungs).

ian

igmillichip
Unemployed
Unemployed

Male
Number of posts : 321
Age : 73
Location : Dublin
Registration date : 2009-06-10

http://www.thehsi.org

Back to top Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Re: Avic avic moult

Post by morelia Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:20 am

Thats super info Ian - many thanks. I'll try to learn the epicastirc furrow method as it seems superior to the spermathecae method, although I guess the 2 could be used together in older specimens to confirm sex.

I'm off to try and sex my Nhandu and Avic avic now :)
morelia
morelia
I swear I'm not addicted
I swear I'm not addicted

Male
Number of posts : 1472
Age : 44
Location : Norn Irn
Registration date : 2009-03-02

Back to top Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Re: Avic avic moult

Post by igmillichip Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:34 am

If you're use to microscopy and other observations skills, as I know you are, then you'll find this straightforward.

And, whilst you are at it....and especually as you are looking at Nhandu, then you could also go further into the realms of ID-ing spiders.
Some Nhandu might be Acanthoscurria look-alikes etc etc.
Look at the spermatheca or the male bulbs as a first point of reference. Next would be the 'dent' in their carapace (yeah, it has a proper name, but I couldn't be bothered spelling it correctly :) )

ian

igmillichip
Unemployed
Unemployed

Male
Number of posts : 321
Age : 73
Location : Dublin
Registration date : 2009-06-10

http://www.thehsi.org

Back to top Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Re: Avic avic moult

Post by morelia Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:34 am

Tried soaking the exuviae of both the Avic and the Nhandu, and the abdomen of both was very torn so I don't think its of any use in sexing. I'll try to get the sheds sooner before they dry up in future.

I did however get a few shots of the book lung area of both species - see below

Avic avic
Avic avic moult P1040708
Avic avic moult P1040724
Avic avic moult P1040726

Nhandu chromatus
Avic avic moult P1040743
Avic avic moult P1040749
Avic avic moult P1040753

What do you guys think? Are the photos good / clear enough?
morelia
morelia
I swear I'm not addicted
I swear I'm not addicted

Male
Number of posts : 1472
Age : 44
Location : Norn Irn
Registration date : 2009-03-02

Back to top Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Re: Avic avic moult

Post by igmillichip Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:15 pm

The pictures are clear.....but I'm going to have to put them on a bigger and cleaner screen to see.

Would you like to state what you feel is what sex (based on a quickie description)?

ian

igmillichip
Unemployed
Unemployed

Male
Number of posts : 321
Age : 73
Location : Dublin
Registration date : 2009-06-10

http://www.thehsi.org

Back to top Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Re: Avic avic moult

Post by igmillichip Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:48 pm

Hint....you need to concentrate on the anterior section of the epigastric furrow.
I'm seeing from my laptop you have both sexes, but a live view with a magnifying glass with give a 3D image to be extra confident.
Where the bristles are the same colour can be difficult to see, but these are darker coloured underneaths...and that makes things easier than some light coloured underneaths.

ian

igmillichip
Unemployed
Unemployed

Male
Number of posts : 321
Age : 73
Location : Dublin
Registration date : 2009-06-10

http://www.thehsi.org

Back to top Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Re: Avic avic moult

Post by morelia Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:01 pm

Looking at the furrow, I'd say the Avic avic is a female....still not too sure on the Nhandu, there is perhaps a tuft of red hairs anterior to the furrow that mask it slightly so maybe a male?
morelia
morelia
I swear I'm not addicted
I swear I'm not addicted

Male
Number of posts : 1472
Age : 44
Location : Norn Irn
Registration date : 2009-03-02

Back to top Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Re: Avic avic moult

Post by igmillichip Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:16 pm

From the pictures as they are.....that would be my take as well.
When this method really starts to show itself when looking at a species for the first time is if you happen to have a male and female of the species.
That is were a little subtle skill comes in with some species.

Another thing to do is to measure the relative distances between the book lungs (anterior especially).

There you go.

igmillichip
Unemployed
Unemployed

Male
Number of posts : 321
Age : 73
Location : Dublin
Registration date : 2009-06-10

http://www.thehsi.org

Back to top Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Re: Avic avic moult

Post by snakeboyadam2k8 Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:29 pm

Hi ian
Very interesting info on the external epigastic method of sexing T's, I must say that I have always found it easier using the internal epigastric furrow method as I feel it is easier to see what you are looking for. The trick is being able to spread out the moult without tearing it.
John
snakeboyadam2k8
snakeboyadam2k8
I just can't stop
I just can't stop

Male
Number of posts : 785
Age : 77
Location : Belfast
Registration date : 2009-03-02

Back to top Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Re: Avic avic moult

Post by igmillichip Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:29 pm

I'd also say that we should continue looking for differences in sex in other places as well.
Spermatheca and epigatric furrow methods (using molts and living specimens) are proving to be very reliable and so much better than "females are bugger" or "males have longer legs".

Sometimes the molt is so poor that it often difficult to get anything from it.
We've had a few spiders who simply attack their molt and shred it.

But, yeah, developing skills in restoring molts are also good for if ever you get a spider stuck in a molt.

I think that a compendium of molts here would be a great asset....and the forum has some really good photographers who are also into spiders.
:)

ian

igmillichip
Unemployed
Unemployed

Male
Number of posts : 321
Age : 73
Location : Dublin
Registration date : 2009-06-10

http://www.thehsi.org

Back to top Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Re: Avic avic moult

Post by JoeR Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:59 pm

wow this thread is fully of great info!!!
Nice T Karl. May be getting one of these soon myself!
JoeR
JoeR
Insomniac
Insomniac

Male
Number of posts : 1646
Age : 30
Location : Galway
Registration date : 2010-04-21

Back to top Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Re: Avic avic moult

Post by morelia Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:22 am

Go for it Joe, the Avics are amazing if not speedy little T's to work with.
morelia
morelia
I swear I'm not addicted
I swear I'm not addicted

Male
Number of posts : 1472
Age : 44
Location : Norn Irn
Registration date : 2009-03-02

Back to top Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Re: Avic avic moult

Post by JoeR Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:52 am

Yeah i defo am !!! I've been watching youtube vids, and there just too beautiful and amazing NOT to get!
JoeR
JoeR
Insomniac
Insomniac

Male
Number of posts : 1646
Age : 30
Location : Galway
Registration date : 2010-04-21

Back to top Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Re: Avic avic moult

Post by matt Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:06 pm

Top notch info going on here alright, I'll be back and forth for a look at this one many times I'm sure, cool stuff

Beautiful looking Avic too, Karl !

matt
Unemployed
Unemployed

Male
Number of posts : 245
Registration date : 2010-11-02

Back to top Go down

Avic avic moult Empty Re: Avic avic moult

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum